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Project Comment is all about the community, so instead of just sticking to one thing and effectively closing all our walls and doors, we’re issuing a weekly Around dA, Project Comment style.

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Have something to suggest? Note us! :D

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`photonig:iconphotonig: reports, December 4
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Editorials


The downhill slide of the "Fractal Community"

=FarDareisMai:iconFarDareisMai: reports, January 2
When it comes to the deviantART fractal community, I feel like a geezer sitting on my porch watching the world pass me by. I look around and see many new faces. Some of them bring refreshing, innovative things to the genre. But many of them churn out forgettable Apophysis renders... and these renders get faved. Standards become lower. And when I look to the "old guard" as an example of what fractals can be, I notice that more and more of them are simply disappearing.

I have felt like this for a very long time now, but I have always had (and still have) a lot of reservations about voicing it. But I am shucking those off for now. I'm going to name a few names, point a few fingers, and give an example (maybe more than one) of a fractal which I think does not deserve the recognition it has. I am sorry if it is yours. I am not out to hurt your feelings; I am simply sick of only being able to say flattering things.

In the four and a half years since I posted my first fractal on deviantART, I have seen many changes within the fractal community. It is probably impossible to thoroughly describe those changes, but I am sure as hell going to try.

Best of the Best?

If I could point to a single thing that sparked this article, it would be this news feature: 40 Fractals: The very best of 2008. I am not looking to rip this news article apart. It was, on the whole, very well done. Plenty of worthy fractals were featured, and there was an okay balance of UF and Apophysis. I was especially glad to see =silwenka, ~LeXXe, and *fractek get the recognition they deserved.

I am also not trying to present an alternative "best fractals" list. Obviously nobody is going to agree 100% on a thing like that and =tragic-saturn is just as entitled to his opinion as myself or anyone else. But I found a few of his choices thought-provoking. For instance:



It's pretty, yes. But there is nothing particularly original about it, and viewing the full-size image via a download will reveal that the render quality could be better. Is this pretty-but-not-jaw-dropping fractal really one of the best of the year? Especially when deviants such as =Velvet--Glove, =Beesknees67, ~Rykk, =magnusti78, =misterxz, and *LaPurr were omitted? I think not.

This issue of great fractals being passed up for mediocre ones is also prevalent when browsing. I found this near the top of the "popular in the last three days" page of the fractal gallery:



At the time of writing this, it has fifty-nine favorites. Fifty-nine favorites and a high spot on the first page for something that looks like it could be generated in a random batch? You have got to be kidding me. This is especially depressing because I found the following gems relegated to page nine, ten, and beyond:



I think it is easy to see that all of these fractals required a lot more time, effort, and talent than the first one. And yet, they do not get the recognition.

Before you accuse me of putting too much importance on faves and popularity, I would like you to imagine something: a fractal gallery where the most popular deviations and the best deviations were one and the same. It's been said a million times that faves do not necessarily reflect quality. But what if they did? It would make browsing a whole lot easier--no more hunting through pages of popular, mediocre fractals to dig up the great, ignored ones. It would also reward those artists who truly deserve it. Maybe this is an unrealistic pipe dream that will never happen. Actually, with the fractal community the way it is now, I know it won't happen. But here's the thing: It wasn't always like this.

I'm trying to avoid going into a "lost halcyon days of yore" mode, but I do remember a time when the "popular" button brought you a page full of amazing fractals, rather than the random, toss-up, grab-bag it is now. I was naive enough to think it would stay that way. Perhaps I am even more naive now for hoping it might come back.

No School Like the Old School

Enough whining about bad art. What happened to all the good stuff? Let's take a look at some people who I consider among the best fractalists on dA.

~segami, *FireLilyFractals, and ~Funygrl haven't posted any new fractals since September. Also in September, `Nestalgica vanished to a completely different account. ~premutos has had no new fractals since August. ~onebadpenny, ~denise-g, and =MelonLogic's last fractals are from July. So is ~fib3rglass's... and the one before that is from October 2007... and before that, August 2005.

What about ~PimpcessTyna? `sya? =zeolyte? None of them have uploaded a fractal since May. ~Taser-Rander hasn't put one up since April, and ~zzzzra's and ~sharkrey's last fractals are from March.

And then you get to the really old ones. *unHnu and ~laethian's last fractals were in March of 2007. I'm not sure when ~o-LJ-o stopped, because her entire gallery is invisible now, but it used to be a treasure trove of amazing fractals. ~nythrind has not put out anything since February 2006, ~greenarmani since January 2005. *deliquescence's last fractal dates back to November 2004. I fear she is never coming back, but I keep her on my watch list just in case.

`creativ82 is an interesting case. He's still fairly active (thank God) and still really well-known... but I bet most fractal newcomers, casually browsing his gallery, would never realize that he was once regarded as the best fractalist on dA by everyone involved with fractals, no exaggeration.

And, to be honest, I just don't think the current big names in the fractal community have the artistic chops that the people above did. Oh, there are some individuals that do; not all of the great artists have gone inactive, and quite a few new people have proven just as good as the old-school folks. But as a whole the current fractalist pool is a weak shadow of the old. IMHO, of course. I also think it is a large problem that the new group may not even know of these fractalists that came before them. How many of the names above were new to you? I won't bore you with another list of dates, but I will throw a few more fractalists at you: ~muetze. `grubin. ~datagram. ~uberlord. =Enronian. ~JFMuni. ~batoruco. =trinity-77. ~Mignon. ~Erosa. All of them were once very important in the fractal community. Do you even recognize their names?

A House Divided

Sometimes I feel that there is this unspoken current of tension in the fractal community between Apophysis users and Ultra Fractal users. Maybe I am imagining this. But I am going to talk about it anyway.

I have very mixed feelings about Apophysis. On one hand, by being free and open-source, it brings fractals to the masses. Yay! But the fractals those masses make? Not so yay.

Please don't twist that statement into something like, "FarDareisMai thinks all Apo users are talentless hacks." That couldn't be further from the truth. There are many, many great Apophysis artists out there (=banana-tree, *Kaeltyk, *Zueuk, `MichaelFaber, `DragonWinter, and `JoelFaber all come immediately to mind, and there are plenty more) and I believe that Apophysis used at its highest level is artistically equal to Ultra Fractal used at its highest level. But Apophysis doesn't seem to get used at its highest level quite as often. There's a lot of bad Apophysis work out there. There's a lot of bad UF work as well, of course, but it is nowhere near the volume of the bad Apophysis stuff.

Also, because Ultra Fractal is simply used by fewer people, it also seems to be more neglected and more misunderstood. Apophysis images are more likely to win contests, get DDs, and score a high number of faves. I am sure this is partly because there are simply more Apophysis images. But I do not think that is all of it. Remember that huge blowup between the fractal community and the dA administration over parameters back in 2007? Remember how the dA administration made it up to the fractal community by raising several fractalists to senior status? Every single one of those fractalists was primarily an Apophysis user. The Apophysis community is a large part of the fractal community, but it is not the only part, and I think people forget that sometimes.

One of the worst UF misunderstandings I have seen comes from the fractal forum here on dA. (Didn't know we had one of those? Here it is!) At first, the deviant in question was simply trying to convince someone to use Apophysis to create fractals rather than GIMP. So far, so good: Apophysis is a dedicated fractal program and GIMP isn't. But then he made this comment: "...there are so many fractal artists out there who use gimp and ultrafractal to churn out hundreds and hundreds of fractals they made in the 60 seconds they had spare at lunch."

As I am sure most of you know, the complexity of Ultra Fractal makes this highly unlikely. I suppose someone could churn out an endless stream of one-layer spirals. But I sure haven't seen it. People do begin with those effortless fractals, but even the most basic of UF users usually start experimenting with layers early on. I don't know where this person got the notion that UF would generate random fractal images like that, but clearly he does not understand the nature of UF. And that leads me to wonder how widespread attitudes like his are.

Community?

Back in 2004, `newklear posted an editorial that bemoaned the decline of the deviantART community, and ended his editorial by asking how it would affect you if deviantART were to disappear, and what your reasons were for staying on the site.

This is an excerpt from my response, given in July, 2005:

"In my first nine months to a year here, I felt like one drop of water in a very, very large sea. Then I discovered the fractal community. Yes, community."

"I browse the new deviations is the fractal gallery, see a piece I've never seen before, and say, "Wow, that looks like it was made by such-and-such. Oh yes, it was! Wow, this is definitely some of his best work so far." In the fractal gallery, you can stand out from the crowd, not be buried in it. You can still be discovered. You don't have to be popular, or even very known, to get your art on the DTFs. (the fractal specific ones) I have randomly commented on fractalists, to find out that the artist has heard of me before; others have done the same to me. Fractalists know eachother, help eachother, teach eachother... there is not as much anonymity."


I don't think that statement is true anymore. And it saddens me, deeply. I feel a bit bad for complaining about it for such length without suggestion a way to fix it, but I honestly don't know how. I am open to suggestions. Comment away.



Author's Note: This was originaly posted in my journal, and I encourage you to read some of the original comments there.

Devious Comments

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:icon1arcticfox:
I'd like to make a slight correction. I just did a "head count"......since I was one off those "fractalists' made a senior" and I have 319 fractals I made by Apophysis and 319 made by two other programs - FraxPlorer & Fractal Explorer That doesn't make me primarily an Apophysis user.

The other correction is that Senior Status isn't just about art.....it's also about Community-wide service & involvement in other areas - which I was doing at the time....as were some of the other people who were made Seniors.

At the time it occurred, I didn't even know what Senior Status meant, and had to go look it up. I didn't come to DA to be made a Senior and I didn't ask for it. I came to DA, because I finally found people who were like me....artists' who don't think like regular people. I came to be motivated and inspired, to be accepted for being different, and to learn and to grow as an artist.

It makes me sad to see division in a community, especially when I have met so many wonderful people, who like me.....just want to learn and get better. There will always be populaity contests - anywhere on the net.....not just at DA, but I refuse to let that ruin MY experience here. I just go about and do "my own thing".

As for UF Versus Apo.....why does there have to be a "good" or a "bad".....or not as good fractal program? They do different types of fractals and each has it's good points as do other fractal programs. To say that layering in UF takes more talent and that Apo can be turned out in 5 minutes, only means that the viewer has not seen the hours that some people put into Apo.

I do not claim to be an Apo expert by any means.....there are people that are far better than I am......but I'll be damned if I can turn out a good one in less than two days, working several hours a day and I've spent as much as a week on some!

Yes, there is "junk" posted, but people start out here and have to learn, and not everyone can post a "miracle fractal" the first time they try Apo, or any other fractal program. I am of the opinion that tolerance is a good thing to learn....because we all were crappy....when we first started doing art!

The opinions stated here are strictly my own.....and I did so because it makes me sad to see any arguments about the the fractal community & benefits of being here. I always figure if a person is no longer getting anything out of being at any site....it's time to move on. It that ever happened to me....that's what I would do.

Peace, Health & DA Love,

1arcticfox :hug: :heart: :-)

--
Art is the oxygen for your soul!

My art is NOT Public Domain and NOT free or stock. You MAY NOT POST it elsewhere. My work is copyrighted and I retain ALL rights.
:iconfardareismai:
My bad about the "primarily apophysis" thing. I'll admit I didn't do exact counts. Also, I did the gallery-browsing that brought me to that conclusion months ago and probably should have checked to see if anything had changed before I posted the article.

Also, I know senior status is not just about art, and I am well aware that the people who got senior status were rightfully involved in the community. The thing is, there were/are plenty of UF users who also do the community-wide service and involvement that you speak of. But for some reason when the `s were handed out they were off the dA administration's radar. Not consciously ignored, I'm sure. Just overlooked by people who didn't dig a little deeper into the community they were trying to appease.

As for UF Versus Apo.....why does there have to be a "good" or a "bad".....or not as good fractal program? They do different types of fractals and each has it's good points as do other fractal programs. To say that layering in UF takes more talent and that Apo can be turned out in 5 minutes, only means that the viewer has not seen the hours that some people put into Apo.

With all due respect, I never said anything to that effect. I went to great lengths to explain that I thought the two had equal artistic potential, but Apo just happens to be abused a lot more.

*sigh* I wish people would get more out of this article than the section contrasting the two programs.

--
█▄ █▄█ █▄ ▀█▄
:icondwalker1047:
I agree with :icon1arcticfox: :nod: None of us asked to be "Seniors" and I found out when she found out. We looked up what a senior was together. We were not part of the decision to make us seniors...but we felt it was an honor given to us by our "peers" by all of the community things we had done and continue to do. In my gallery I also have images I made with several different programs, and I have to tell you, I use UF and it has been proven to be most difficult to use. I have lots of images I have made and do not post because it does not live up to my expectations. Please note, I have a few UF fractals on my main gallery page which are some of the most popular in my gallery.

When I :+fav: the work of others, I :+fav: what appeals to me or what I like according to my preferences. There are big differences in the kinds of fractals that can be made with each program. I think your statement is untrue about how APO users have more work in the fractal gallery....I see lots of other work in there and have :+fav:d a lot of it...and recommended several pieces for DD's! Mastering the programs and supporting the work of others is how people learn and grow, and goes hand-in-hand as far as I'm concerned. That is how I learned after all. I think it would be most unfortunate to diminish that spirit in artistspeople. There are many here who are inspired by our images and have become fractal artists as a result. So, I will leave you with this quote:

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt

Quite frankly, it deeply saddens me to see these kinds of discussions. They tear our community apart, and prove to be more destructive than constructive.

--
You think it's funny until a thief "steals your :deviation:"
=Apophysis Admin
=Fractal-Resources Resource Admin
~RippedArtTaskForceFounder
*ImagersFractalDDsResource and News Manager
*FractalDreams Resource and News Manager
:iconbanana-tree:
hey, i thought you had disappeared into thin air too, it was exciting to see your new works and comments in my inbox today. :)

so, first of all, thanks for the recognition in the article, it's an honour to be mentioned with all the other great people you've named up there. and although i'm not exactly an 'old school' artist, i do know of/remember most of the artists you've mentioned and miss seeing their works (i must specifically point out ~zzzzra and ~batoruco here).

the short reply to this article would be: the whole fractal community here needs an Visual Arts 101 course. the longer answer is as follows:

looking back on my own 'newbie' experience on dA and my old fractals from more than two years back, i remember being excited over the random batch flames and a few clicks in the Mutation window. i still keep most of those renders in my gallery for those who are interested in seeing my improvement as an artist (because i'm interested in seeing others';). the thing is, though, back then, even though i was active in the chats and i commented on others' works, i barely got any positive feedback on my works (that honestly didn't deserve any). that was devastating, but that's a good thing because that pushed me to try harder and to improve.

now, what i'm seeing in the fractal gallery and in the community in general is the lack of any real sense of artistic quality. the random batch flames can even get DD's, and that's not good for the artists that get those DDs either. it's good to be encouraged, but it's certainly not good to be encouraged for something that doesn't deserve the recognition. it just pulls the standards down. it prevents the artist from trying harder because there's not much more to look up to (at least on DA) when you have the same recognition as the best artists around (and even more than some). i don't think mild elitism is a bad thing, as long as it doesn't turn into some sort of fascism against all n00bs. there does need to be a certain standard to look up to, after all.

as a side note i'm really not a huge fan of the 'no child left behind - at the price of pulling the best down' attitude in general, so it reflects to my reaction to the DA community and the 'love all, praise all, no matter if they deserve it or not' attitude. because no, it does not hurt the community to complain about the low quality of fractals. it actually helps. or should, anyway.

and being a primarily Apo artist who has also tried UF, i know and appreciate both programs. As a personal opinion, i think UF is a more complete program and Apo renders almost always need postwork to show their full potential, but ultimately, they're just different programs that can be used to make equally amazing art, with postwork or without. but because for some ridiculous reason most Apo artists fear even the word postwork, i find that the majority of the Apophysis submissions in the DA fractal gallery are less than what they could be. UF, however, has most postwork facilities inside the program and that somehow 'justifies' adding elements and enhancing the fractals in many ways for the fractal purists, which results in better quality works overall. And i actually find that fact recognized by the overall DA community and not so much by the fractal community (because of the mentioned fractal purism - some people actually think UF fractals aren't ';pure' enough :roll:).

right now, i find that most fractal artists usually follow/comment on the works from the same program that they're using themselves (Apo artists on Apo works, UF artists on UF works etc.) and they usually base their feedback more on technical aspects and less on aesthetics, which is the major thing that disturbs me here on DA actually. to me it really doesn't matter what program was used in the making of an artwork as long as it's unique and expressive. the fractal community is way too buried in technical details to appreciate the art itself, and that's another thing that's pulling the quality down imho. there are so many new techniques being developed (especially in Apo) and presented with little or no attention paid to aesthetics, which takes away the art from 'fractal art'.

anyway, this is way too much rambling. it's good to see this subject brought up again, because i've had the urge to write a similar article quite a few times myself. it's much more fitting coming from an older and more established fractal artist like yourself :)

cheers!

--
bananas, anyone?
:iconclovdyx:
Thanks for the omitting :|

Just kidding. :P

--
70% of teenagers have smoked pot. Paste this in your signature if you're one of the thirty six Mexicans who likes to tie your shoes while making out with fruit pastries.
:iconraptorgirl:
I dabble in fractals now and then. Mine aren't that great compared to some. Maybe because I haven't fully figured out the program, but I do dabble around with the program. Lol, I'm proud to say that I got a feature with one.

--
"So. What's the odds?"
"Two of us, probably twenty of them."
"Twenty against two..I like the odds.."
:iconout-phaze:
See how much nicer this looks as a new post? =^_^= :+favlove:

--
"Sit back, and enjoy the ride....."

Yes, I like to play with fire.

Check out my old Account for my older stuffs! ~djgenstryker

"People might not remember what I've said to them, but people will always remember how I make them feel."
:iconstumm47:
Interesting,but how do you define an original fractal? A picture created by a machine and a string of code,can that be totally original,and does it need to be,or maybe it just needs to be attractive? What do you make of my simple fractals? I don't have Apophysis and don't really have the time to play with Incendia. Mine are old school created in FractGen or Fractint

--
My god its full of stars!
>==¦===@ .

My blogs
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:iconbanana-tree:
oh fractals aren't created by the machines. they're just calculated by computers following the artist's directions. you might as well rule out photography as an art form since it's the camera that processes the light that comes into it, disregarding the photographer's effort to choose the right settings, the right composition and the right timing. the reason why you might have the impression that fractals can't be original at all is probably because you're using a very old-school fractal program that doesn't allow for too much flexibility and choice for the user. just browse around the fractal gallery and you'll be sure to find very unique fractals that show the creative input very clearly. take [link] for example. it uses the classic mandelbrot set, yet i dare you to not call that a unique piece of fractal art. :)

--
bananas, anyone?
 

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